Great article Jeff. You know you did well when the keyboard warriors come out en masse. They can't stand that this movie will be successful BECAUSE of a diverse cast, not in spite of it.
"Woke" is just a lazy way to dismiss creative choices without engaging with whether those choices actually hurt the story. We have to examine the art on its own merit, not through a political lens.
Chris Nolan is one of the greates fiimmakers to ever do it. The idea that he would compromise his artistic vision for any reason seems quite absurd to me. Not everyone is obsessed with the Culture Wars. Some of us just live our lives and engage with content we like, and ignore content we don't. How avant-garde!
Woke is misunderstood or being ignored. Unless you actually try to understand what it means in context, when you hear someone talk about it you will not understand what they mean and try to interpret it wrong. The whole point is the art is NOT done on merit, but by force. It is important to distinguish the two.
The concerns about woke in modern TV and movies is absolutely correct. The success of some of those movies or TV shows isn't the issue. It does not change the fact that they are still woke. I don't think you understand what woke means in this context. Other media you didn't mention; The Acolyte, ST:Academy and Hulk, Supergirl, illustrate the failures even better. But each of them have different explanations of how woke may have contributed to, but are not the core reason why they failed. Some of them just were not good, but still woke in many ways.
First we have to understand what we mean by woke in the industry. In their own words they want to add more POC and identities into casting and push out white, straight and male. This is from their own words. Let's be clear, the criticisms isn't that a movie or show was race or gender swapped, it is about why and how. It is often activism disguised as TV. It is a force narrative pushed on its audience.
Virtual signaling messaging; inclusive, diverse - they should be liked just because they are diverse. They deserve it because they are 'x'. If it is not diverse, it must be bad. If someone does not like it or is a critic, it must be because they don't like woman or diverse characters.
Another example is the fact that many older movies had very powerful and liked woman; Alien, Terminator, Star Trek, BSG, etc. Not without some early controversy, they still became classics and well loved. Yet today, it is often sold as "now we finally have strong women in our movies" as if the mere fact that a woman was cast, it must be accepted as good. Or a character was swapped, so now it must be accepted as good.
When the new BSG came out in the 2000s Starbuck was recast, but no one saw it as woke, as it was not really a thing, nor would they see it that way today. We may complain or have a preference, but it was not woke. BSG turned out great.
In Snow White, it wasn't Rachel herself being cast, it was her own words that had people calling it woke. It was the in your face understanding of how bad it looked from the start. It was also ignoring the premise of the 1930s version. The queen was jealous of Snow Whites beauty. The woke part was ignoring this part in casting. Objective beauty is frowed upon in woke circles. She is beautiful, but they made her look worse.
If you understand woke in this framework, it is clear why these shows are bad and how they were affected.
Unearned or fake struggles based on identity.
Forced woke narratives. Their identity is more important than who they actually are.
Men and woman are the same or should be.
Forced diversity and inclusion; Academy added rules for best picture based on race/demographics not merit or performance.
I have no doubt The Odyssey will be successful, but this does not dismiss the claims of woke as they are very evident.
The issue isn't Elliot Page playing a part. It is the narrative that one must accept her as good just because of identity. it is the criticism of her own words. No criticism allowed?
Woke is not made up, it is misunderstood. It is a weapon. It isn't used in everything, but where it is used, it is toxic.
Well as I said, woke is meaningless. So no, I don’t understand. Because it has no meaning. The shows you mentioned weren’t good either. So again, it’s not the “wokeness”. It’s that they were bad.
But you’ve said all you need to say by calling Elliot Page “her”. You’re one of the bad ones.
I knew that would trigger you and validated my point. You're forcing people into your world view. Not a critique or a suggestion but by force and false virtue. both are accurate in context. Her- biology, he - identity.
It’s not that hard to call someone what they’d like to be called. For example, I can call you “he” or I can call you “asshole” and both can be true. You really triggered me - and proved my point about the kind of people I’m talking about. You’re powerless. A dying breed. And no one takes you seriously.
One can ignore reality as you have chosen to do but reality still remains. The power is in truth, not what you want it to be. Maybe you'll see that one day.
Jeff, you are jumping on the propaganda bandwagon. And just so you know, that particular ship has sailed.
As a gay man, we fought for equality. The rainbow flag meant something.
Now the whole movement has been hijacked. By people who want to be treated “special”. And that’s not what everyone in the past fought for.
Equality and the freedom to be who we are. That was it. We weren’t looking to be treated “special”. We just wanted to be “equal” and be able to live our lives. We actually achieved that. I’m married to my husband and we are able to share medical coverage and work benefits. We aren’t out there in people’s faces crying about anything.
My aunt (who used to be my uncle) feels the same. She lives her life and wears what she wants and goes about her day. She isn’t trying to announce who she is to the world. And she can’t stand people who constantly do that.
But today, all that we have accomplished is now actually under threat thanks to people that think they are still “fighting” something. They are actually hurting many of us, and turning people against those of us who are gay. Many people don’t realize that what’s going on today is not; and should not, be connected to the gay community as a whole.
Many self-proclaimed allies today are a decade too late. Now they champion the cause of narcissistic self-centred individuals who think they are more important than everyone else.
They want everyone to change their worldview to suit their non-stop victimhood.
Your view Jeff, lives on a sinking ship.
Many of us in the gay community are done with the alphabet soup, “woke”, they/them crap.
Be who you want to be, but don’t force it on others. Don’t yell and scream at someone who “misgenders” you. Don’t force propaganda in theatres. You want to make a film to showcase POC or trans, make a new film with a new story. Make a new timeless epic. It CAN still be done.
Wake up Jeff. You’re out of touch. Even with people in the gay community who now see the once simple rainbow flag as nothing but an ever-evolving political call-sign.
I can’t believe I’m getting into all this on a simple movie group. I hope you realize many of us would prefer you stick to what you do best without veering into political lanes. We’d prefer Hollywood do the same.
So your aunt goes about her day. And that’s great. But if she was cast in a movie as a female character, then you’d have a problem? You can’t have it both ways. These people can live and also be cast in roles or take jobs and not have people scream “woke” DEI at them.
The boat has sailed on both sides of this argument. If you really think about equality, then it wouldn’t matter if Elliot Page or Hunter Schafer were cast in a role. That’s equality. Complaining about them for no reason other than the fact they are trans? Not equality.
Oh Jeff, sadly you are just demonstrating the problems we have today. Some people are so stuck in the mire they can never be reached. They will just never stop arguing… defending… and will go on and on.
I really thought you would just leave it and take my words for what they were. But no, you gotta try and get the last counter in. Always the last word just to satisfy the “victims”.
First off, I didn’t say I would have any problem
with her being cast as a female in a film. If she was cast in a role that didn’t suit her… well that’s what the discussion was Jeff.
Like I said, make a new film with a new story and she can play a starring role. I would not have a problem.
Please don’t skew the words of others to satisfy your political narrative.
Orson Welles directed an all black cast in a production of 'Macbeth' in the 1930s. It was a huge success. It was also something that he was extremely excited to take on.
I'm tired of people wanting all movies or books or tv shows to reflect their particularly narrow view of the world. Art needs room to breathe. It needs to challenge, to upset norms, to try something different. Otherwise it all becomes so stale.
The anti wokes like Jvqcrtl are far more insufferable than the wokes ever were. They won’t let anything go. Their view of the world got challenged for what , 5-7 years? Being anti woke has become their identity. Kind of ironic.
It is insufferable to you because you don't understand what we're talking about. You instead talk about nothing relevant the the argument. Being anti woke is a defense of a good a noble society. A defender of the actual truth. If you really knew woke, you'd understand that.
Oh brother, you think you're defending a good and noble society in a Substack comments section, time to touch grass buddy. A good and noble world is one where people of color or queer people can just be in a movie and not have people like you make their lives a living hell.
People don't get to describe their own reality then dictation to everyone else this false reality. One can make a case for how the world works, but that is rarely what is happening in the woke sphere. You are also assuming it is not they who are making everyone elses life a living hell (and/or their own).
Clearly you have no idea what we'er even talking about, there are many movies and TV shows with woke elements that I and many other woke critics enjoy. That chances nothing. The "vomit" is yours.
Those who use the term "woke" as a pejorative attacking things in the world that don't conform to their narrow, racist, sexist worldview are the latest version of the folks who used to yell the N-word. Infinite diversity in infinite combinations is the reality of our world. The attempt to exclude those who aren't straight and white is a moral defect. Apologists like Jvqcrtl live in a whitewashed world where the other is to be feared and castigated. Jeff made it clear that diverse casting is not an issue. It comes down to the quality of the story on screen. Try to have empathy for those different from you, and embrace the beauty of our existence.
I am just astonished that people assume that the Hollywood executives had imposed their wills upon Chris Nolan to do "woke" casting.
I mean- come on! Chris Nolan is the last filmmaker in the world who can be imposed with something. He shredded his long-term relationship with Warner Brothers just because they relased Tenet on OTT without a proper theatrical run.
If Nolan had done the "woke" casting, it is 100% on his own will. Everyone should identify and rightfully criticise the casting choices as creative choices.
It’s not that the casting doesn’t matter, it matters, just not in the way the critics, and even the anti-critics, expect. The casting of Sinon and Helen is deliberate and thoughtful, and conveys something deeper about loyalty and betrayal. I hate “woke” but this isn’t “woke”, and I loved it.
You know, people really need to give things a month before writing articles or judging them. I’ve seen it with MMOs and other things; essentially The New Thing is a huge triumph, until time passes and people’s attitudes get more realistic for bad or good. Another video game example was Final Fantasy 16, where before and as it came out it was the savior of JRPGs, then when it did after a bit people were open and more critical of it.
Think the Odyssey needs to cool some before all the triumph.
I watched the yesterday and ended up writing a review myself, so I was interested to read this. The part that really resonated with me was your point that people spent months arguing about the casting instead of the actual film. I have to admit I was one of those people.
I went in convinced the casting would be a huge distraction and came out realising it barely affected my experience at all. I still have some criticisms that survived actually watching it, but they had nothing to do with the things everyone was shouting about online. Reading this alongside writing my own review was a good reminder of how easy it is to let discourse shape expectations before you've even seen the film.
I'd be curious to know what you think if you ever get a chance to read my review.: https://shorturl.at/b73JF
Amen!!! Sadly, it will not kill the discourse. People will take the position that they want to take, no matter how illegible or ridiculous. There is no such thing as “settled once and for all”, in this case because it’s not really a question. But this film does address complicated matters very directly and very articulately; one would hope that would be enough to settle it.
Ummm… You completely misunderstood my comment. Let me clarify, in case there’s any confusion, and express it differently. Being woke doesn’t necessarily mean a film will be a box office failure. This film certainly proves that. However, the next film that has content someone might label as woke and is a financial disappointment will likely blame it on the film’s political themes. They won’t judge the film based on its cinematic merits. They’ll probably forget that a film like The Odyssey, which shares this sensibility, has grossed hundreds of millions of dollars.
I think the point I try to make in other comments was that in the films that do bad and are bad, it is often very woke. After 2015 it is hard to distinguish because woke become so predominate in both TV and movies at this time and just got worse (really bad after 2020). Maybe some will see it as a bad film regardless but that is the exception, the woke elements are still valid critique. Wonder Woman did great, with very little woke critique. Captain marvel did well, but promoted very woke elements (especially the cast). I liked both, but not the woke elements. It is not just a political theme, many films have them, the criticism is very specific and focused on the woke.
Discuss whether the film is good or bad. Is it a good film? How is the craftsmanship? How are the various filmmaking disciplines fully realized or not? These are the only things that matter. The films may be woke or not, it all depends on who you ask.
Well… I would have to disagree somewhat. “Woke” may be an overused term these days but at the same time people are tired. Tired of the needless layers being added to cinema. People just want to go see a film and be entertained. They don’t want everything to always be “political” in some way. And there is no arguing that choices were made here that are indeed “political”.
I happen to know many who have been turned off by this film. And not just because of the casting, but the use of “non-period” language. The contemporary use of “Dad” or “Let’s go”. Sounds minor, but as someone from the film industry told me, when you make an epic film and you miss the mark on simple script choices - that’s bad. No matter how grand the film.
I too, think the casting here is suspect. “Statements” through casting choices to “tick boxes” will always be off-putting.
You failed to point out the other fact - there are no Greek or Mediterranean actors in the film despite this being a story foundational to their culture.
Those on one side of the spectrum will always do their “darnedest” to distract, make excuses or even point fingers. Bottom line is if you’re telling a pre-existing story in film, don’t change characters/narratives to tick boxes. Inevitably people won’t like it - whether they are “woke” or not. Hollywood needs to tell new stories and cast actors and actresses in roles that they can make their own.
The Little Mermaid was the perfect example. So many kids identified with the red-haired Ariel they had always known. Think of the little girls with red hair who have very few fellow redhead stars to look up to. Instead of swapping in Halle Bailey for Ariel, why didn’t they create something new with another mermaid and tell her own story. That would have been the best path to take. Not only for the Little Mermaid but for many other recent films.
People want something new and fresh. And that opens the door for any actor or actress to make their roles their own without any expectation of who should be playing the part.
The real issue many took with The Little Mermaid is that you needed a POC to be able to identify with the character. As if the color of ones skin is what should be in the way of identifying with a character in a fantasy. The idea should be that that does not matter.
Yeah I’m excited for the odyssey and the preemptive casting criticism is silly to me. But you’re not honestly framing some of this stuff. Rachel Zegler brought the anti-woke criticism on herself with her outlandish and antagonistic political statements in promotion of the movie. Snow White is a bad ass bitch who don’t need no man; bringing up Israel and Trump. Fine. Whatever. Say what you want but don’t go out of your way to thumb your nose at the normie middle Americans who have to decide whether or not to spend money on your crappy movie and then act like the audience is the one who’s out of line.
My argument is that “woke” has nothing to do with a movie’s success or failure. Because it doesn’t. Bad movies will fail. Good movies will win. And no “anti-woke” people are changing that at all.
Understand that Jeff doesn't even understand or want to understand the context of woke. The bad movies he refers to are bad, but are also woke to different degrees. The argument isn't that all movies or TV with woke will fail, it's that woke is a toxic view of the world and should fail.
I disagree with your thesis (which is not meant to antagonize you personally by the way!). My view is that a film that panders politically or socially or tries to subvert its own source material to make a progressive political statement will fail artistically in 99% of cases. You can’t separate woke from bad.
I guess I’m not sure what you would consider woke then. Or maybe you view woke in a much more positive light than I do. To me you’re calling out famously very woke films and shows and saying they aren’t actually woke they’re just bad. To me it’s a distinction without a difference.
I wouldn’t consider anything “woke”. As I’ve said, it’s completely meaningless. Bad films have always been bad. Being too overt with messaging is bad filmmaking. But that’s been bad forever. Woke is a new BS term made up as a buzzword recently to try and ignite a culture war.
I enjoyed the movie and find it to be a masterpiece in filmmaking. However, you have to admit that framing Odysseus as a traumatized "war is hell" veteran is a gross, gross liberty taken with the original text. The Odyssey is an epic poem that makes no bones about how great the sacking of Troy was. At no point does Homer make Odysseus wonder about the morality of war. That's why the character is flat and one sided in the book... Of course I get that this doesn't work on screen and Matt Damon needed an arc to keep things moving forward and the movie works and is fantastic for it. I loved it and am behind the whole "we were fighting terrorists and then became the terrorists (or people from the sea) after bombing a school in Iran or beheading Athena", sure, sign me up. But that just ain't in the book and I totally get people criticizing it.
Excellent article! I've not seen the film yet but now I look forward to it.
Great article Jeff. You know you did well when the keyboard warriors come out en masse. They can't stand that this movie will be successful BECAUSE of a diverse cast, not in spite of it.
"Woke" is just a lazy way to dismiss creative choices without engaging with whether those choices actually hurt the story. We have to examine the art on its own merit, not through a political lens.
Chris Nolan is one of the greates fiimmakers to ever do it. The idea that he would compromise his artistic vision for any reason seems quite absurd to me. Not everyone is obsessed with the Culture Wars. Some of us just live our lives and engage with content we like, and ignore content we don't. How avant-garde!
Woke is misunderstood or being ignored. Unless you actually try to understand what it means in context, when you hear someone talk about it you will not understand what they mean and try to interpret it wrong. The whole point is the art is NOT done on merit, but by force. It is important to distinguish the two.
The concerns about woke in modern TV and movies is absolutely correct. The success of some of those movies or TV shows isn't the issue. It does not change the fact that they are still woke. I don't think you understand what woke means in this context. Other media you didn't mention; The Acolyte, ST:Academy and Hulk, Supergirl, illustrate the failures even better. But each of them have different explanations of how woke may have contributed to, but are not the core reason why they failed. Some of them just were not good, but still woke in many ways.
First we have to understand what we mean by woke in the industry. In their own words they want to add more POC and identities into casting and push out white, straight and male. This is from their own words. Let's be clear, the criticisms isn't that a movie or show was race or gender swapped, it is about why and how. It is often activism disguised as TV. It is a force narrative pushed on its audience.
Virtual signaling messaging; inclusive, diverse - they should be liked just because they are diverse. They deserve it because they are 'x'. If it is not diverse, it must be bad. If someone does not like it or is a critic, it must be because they don't like woman or diverse characters.
Another example is the fact that many older movies had very powerful and liked woman; Alien, Terminator, Star Trek, BSG, etc. Not without some early controversy, they still became classics and well loved. Yet today, it is often sold as "now we finally have strong women in our movies" as if the mere fact that a woman was cast, it must be accepted as good. Or a character was swapped, so now it must be accepted as good.
When the new BSG came out in the 2000s Starbuck was recast, but no one saw it as woke, as it was not really a thing, nor would they see it that way today. We may complain or have a preference, but it was not woke. BSG turned out great.
In Snow White, it wasn't Rachel herself being cast, it was her own words that had people calling it woke. It was the in your face understanding of how bad it looked from the start. It was also ignoring the premise of the 1930s version. The queen was jealous of Snow Whites beauty. The woke part was ignoring this part in casting. Objective beauty is frowed upon in woke circles. She is beautiful, but they made her look worse.
If you understand woke in this framework, it is clear why these shows are bad and how they were affected.
Unearned or fake struggles based on identity.
Forced woke narratives. Their identity is more important than who they actually are.
Men and woman are the same or should be.
Forced diversity and inclusion; Academy added rules for best picture based on race/demographics not merit or performance.
I have no doubt The Odyssey will be successful, but this does not dismiss the claims of woke as they are very evident.
The issue isn't Elliot Page playing a part. It is the narrative that one must accept her as good just because of identity. it is the criticism of her own words. No criticism allowed?
Woke is not made up, it is misunderstood. It is a weapon. It isn't used in everything, but where it is used, it is toxic.
Well as I said, woke is meaningless. So no, I don’t understand. Because it has no meaning. The shows you mentioned weren’t good either. So again, it’s not the “wokeness”. It’s that they were bad.
But you’ve said all you need to say by calling Elliot Page “her”. You’re one of the bad ones.
I knew that would trigger you and validated my point. You're forcing people into your world view. Not a critique or a suggestion but by force and false virtue. both are accurate in context. Her- biology, he - identity.
It’s not that hard to call someone what they’d like to be called. For example, I can call you “he” or I can call you “asshole” and both can be true. You really triggered me - and proved my point about the kind of people I’m talking about. You’re powerless. A dying breed. And no one takes you seriously.
One can ignore reality as you have chosen to do but reality still remains. The power is in truth, not what you want it to be. Maybe you'll see that one day.
Jeff, you are jumping on the propaganda bandwagon. And just so you know, that particular ship has sailed.
As a gay man, we fought for equality. The rainbow flag meant something.
Now the whole movement has been hijacked. By people who want to be treated “special”. And that’s not what everyone in the past fought for.
Equality and the freedom to be who we are. That was it. We weren’t looking to be treated “special”. We just wanted to be “equal” and be able to live our lives. We actually achieved that. I’m married to my husband and we are able to share medical coverage and work benefits. We aren’t out there in people’s faces crying about anything.
My aunt (who used to be my uncle) feels the same. She lives her life and wears what she wants and goes about her day. She isn’t trying to announce who she is to the world. And she can’t stand people who constantly do that.
But today, all that we have accomplished is now actually under threat thanks to people that think they are still “fighting” something. They are actually hurting many of us, and turning people against those of us who are gay. Many people don’t realize that what’s going on today is not; and should not, be connected to the gay community as a whole.
Many self-proclaimed allies today are a decade too late. Now they champion the cause of narcissistic self-centred individuals who think they are more important than everyone else.
They want everyone to change their worldview to suit their non-stop victimhood.
Your view Jeff, lives on a sinking ship.
Many of us in the gay community are done with the alphabet soup, “woke”, they/them crap.
Be who you want to be, but don’t force it on others. Don’t yell and scream at someone who “misgenders” you. Don’t force propaganda in theatres. You want to make a film to showcase POC or trans, make a new film with a new story. Make a new timeless epic. It CAN still be done.
Wake up Jeff. You’re out of touch. Even with people in the gay community who now see the once simple rainbow flag as nothing but an ever-evolving political call-sign.
I can’t believe I’m getting into all this on a simple movie group. I hope you realize many of us would prefer you stick to what you do best without veering into political lanes. We’d prefer Hollywood do the same.
So your aunt goes about her day. And that’s great. But if she was cast in a movie as a female character, then you’d have a problem? You can’t have it both ways. These people can live and also be cast in roles or take jobs and not have people scream “woke” DEI at them.
The boat has sailed on both sides of this argument. If you really think about equality, then it wouldn’t matter if Elliot Page or Hunter Schafer were cast in a role. That’s equality. Complaining about them for no reason other than the fact they are trans? Not equality.
Oh Jeff, sadly you are just demonstrating the problems we have today. Some people are so stuck in the mire they can never be reached. They will just never stop arguing… defending… and will go on and on.
I really thought you would just leave it and take my words for what they were. But no, you gotta try and get the last counter in. Always the last word just to satisfy the “victims”.
First off, I didn’t say I would have any problem
with her being cast as a female in a film. If she was cast in a role that didn’t suit her… well that’s what the discussion was Jeff.
Like I said, make a new film with a new story and she can play a starring role. I would not have a problem.
Please don’t skew the words of others to satisfy your political narrative.
Well said. We need more healthy discourse. Not seeing eye to eye is normal. Woke is much different.
Orson Welles directed an all black cast in a production of 'Macbeth' in the 1930s. It was a huge success. It was also something that he was extremely excited to take on.
I'm tired of people wanting all movies or books or tv shows to reflect their particularly narrow view of the world. Art needs room to breathe. It needs to challenge, to upset norms, to try something different. Otherwise it all becomes so stale.
Woke is the narrow view because it trys to create a bridge between art and reality that does not exist. The narrative is the lie.
No one is questioning the all black cast of Mecbeth in a pure art form. They would question the messaging of the art or the actors.
The anti wokes like Jvqcrtl are far more insufferable than the wokes ever were. They won’t let anything go. Their view of the world got challenged for what , 5-7 years? Being anti woke has become their identity. Kind of ironic.
It is insufferable to you because you don't understand what we're talking about. You instead talk about nothing relevant the the argument. Being anti woke is a defense of a good a noble society. A defender of the actual truth. If you really knew woke, you'd understand that.
Oh brother, you think you're defending a good and noble society in a Substack comments section, time to touch grass buddy. A good and noble world is one where people of color or queer people can just be in a movie and not have people like you make their lives a living hell.
People don't get to describe their own reality then dictation to everyone else this false reality. One can make a case for how the world works, but that is rarely what is happening in the woke sphere. You are also assuming it is not they who are making everyone elses life a living hell (and/or their own).
You're here too.
Whatever man, nice word vomit. Us "woke" people will go enjoy the Odyssey while you cry about it at home and die mad about it.
Clearly you have no idea what we'er even talking about, there are many movies and TV shows with woke elements that I and many other woke critics enjoy. That chances nothing. The "vomit" is yours.
Those who use the term "woke" as a pejorative attacking things in the world that don't conform to their narrow, racist, sexist worldview are the latest version of the folks who used to yell the N-word. Infinite diversity in infinite combinations is the reality of our world. The attempt to exclude those who aren't straight and white is a moral defect. Apologists like Jvqcrtl live in a whitewashed world where the other is to be feared and castigated. Jeff made it clear that diverse casting is not an issue. It comes down to the quality of the story on screen. Try to have empathy for those different from you, and embrace the beauty of our existence.
Typical of the “I’m special crew”…
Anyhow, in your worldview I guess it’s okay they didn’t cast any Greek or Mediterranean actors or actresses. Too white perhaps?
Always the pot calling the kettle black…
I agree with most of your points.
I am just astonished that people assume that the Hollywood executives had imposed their wills upon Chris Nolan to do "woke" casting.
I mean- come on! Chris Nolan is the last filmmaker in the world who can be imposed with something. He shredded his long-term relationship with Warner Brothers just because they relased Tenet on OTT without a proper theatrical run.
If Nolan had done the "woke" casting, it is 100% on his own will. Everyone should identify and rightfully criticise the casting choices as creative choices.
This article superbly shows that you don’t know what woke is, nice work.
He doesn't want to understand it. He wants to preserve his boxed in world view with no critique.
It’s not that the casting doesn’t matter, it matters, just not in the way the critics, and even the anti-critics, expect. The casting of Sinon and Helen is deliberate and thoughtful, and conveys something deeper about loyalty and betrayal. I hate “woke” but this isn’t “woke”, and I loved it.
You know, people really need to give things a month before writing articles or judging them. I’ve seen it with MMOs and other things; essentially The New Thing is a huge triumph, until time passes and people’s attitudes get more realistic for bad or good. Another video game example was Final Fantasy 16, where before and as it came out it was the savior of JRPGs, then when it did after a bit people were open and more critical of it.
Think the Odyssey needs to cool some before all the triumph.
I watched the yesterday and ended up writing a review myself, so I was interested to read this. The part that really resonated with me was your point that people spent months arguing about the casting instead of the actual film. I have to admit I was one of those people.
I went in convinced the casting would be a huge distraction and came out realising it barely affected my experience at all. I still have some criticisms that survived actually watching it, but they had nothing to do with the things everyone was shouting about online. Reading this alongside writing my own review was a good reminder of how easy it is to let discourse shape expectations before you've even seen the film.
I'd be curious to know what you think if you ever get a chance to read my review.: https://shorturl.at/b73JF
Amen!!! Sadly, it will not kill the discourse. People will take the position that they want to take, no matter how illegible or ridiculous. There is no such thing as “settled once and for all”, in this case because it’s not really a question. But this film does address complicated matters very directly and very articulately; one would hope that would be enough to settle it.
He calls out woke without even understanding what it is. can't settle anything if you don't understand it.
Ummm… You completely misunderstood my comment. Let me clarify, in case there’s any confusion, and express it differently. Being woke doesn’t necessarily mean a film will be a box office failure. This film certainly proves that. However, the next film that has content someone might label as woke and is a financial disappointment will likely blame it on the film’s political themes. They won’t judge the film based on its cinematic merits. They’ll probably forget that a film like The Odyssey, which shares this sensibility, has grossed hundreds of millions of dollars.
I think the point I try to make in other comments was that in the films that do bad and are bad, it is often very woke. After 2015 it is hard to distinguish because woke become so predominate in both TV and movies at this time and just got worse (really bad after 2020). Maybe some will see it as a bad film regardless but that is the exception, the woke elements are still valid critique. Wonder Woman did great, with very little woke critique. Captain marvel did well, but promoted very woke elements (especially the cast). I liked both, but not the woke elements. It is not just a political theme, many films have them, the criticism is very specific and focused on the woke.
Discuss whether the film is good or bad. Is it a good film? How is the craftsmanship? How are the various filmmaking disciplines fully realized or not? These are the only things that matter. The films may be woke or not, it all depends on who you ask.
Well… I would have to disagree somewhat. “Woke” may be an overused term these days but at the same time people are tired. Tired of the needless layers being added to cinema. People just want to go see a film and be entertained. They don’t want everything to always be “political” in some way. And there is no arguing that choices were made here that are indeed “political”.
I happen to know many who have been turned off by this film. And not just because of the casting, but the use of “non-period” language. The contemporary use of “Dad” or “Let’s go”. Sounds minor, but as someone from the film industry told me, when you make an epic film and you miss the mark on simple script choices - that’s bad. No matter how grand the film.
I too, think the casting here is suspect. “Statements” through casting choices to “tick boxes” will always be off-putting.
You failed to point out the other fact - there are no Greek or Mediterranean actors in the film despite this being a story foundational to their culture.
Those on one side of the spectrum will always do their “darnedest” to distract, make excuses or even point fingers. Bottom line is if you’re telling a pre-existing story in film, don’t change characters/narratives to tick boxes. Inevitably people won’t like it - whether they are “woke” or not. Hollywood needs to tell new stories and cast actors and actresses in roles that they can make their own.
The Little Mermaid was the perfect example. So many kids identified with the red-haired Ariel they had always known. Think of the little girls with red hair who have very few fellow redhead stars to look up to. Instead of swapping in Halle Bailey for Ariel, why didn’t they create something new with another mermaid and tell her own story. That would have been the best path to take. Not only for the Little Mermaid but for many other recent films.
People want something new and fresh. And that opens the door for any actor or actress to make their roles their own without any expectation of who should be playing the part.
The real issue many took with The Little Mermaid is that you needed a POC to be able to identify with the character. As if the color of ones skin is what should be in the way of identifying with a character in a fantasy. The idea should be that that does not matter.
No single film can kill an idiotic dog whistle.
Yeah I’m excited for the odyssey and the preemptive casting criticism is silly to me. But you’re not honestly framing some of this stuff. Rachel Zegler brought the anti-woke criticism on herself with her outlandish and antagonistic political statements in promotion of the movie. Snow White is a bad ass bitch who don’t need no man; bringing up Israel and Trump. Fine. Whatever. Say what you want but don’t go out of your way to thumb your nose at the normie middle Americans who have to decide whether or not to spend money on your crappy movie and then act like the audience is the one who’s out of line.
My argument is that “woke” has nothing to do with a movie’s success or failure. Because it doesn’t. Bad movies will fail. Good movies will win. And no “anti-woke” people are changing that at all.
Understand that Jeff doesn't even understand or want to understand the context of woke. The bad movies he refers to are bad, but are also woke to different degrees. The argument isn't that all movies or TV with woke will fail, it's that woke is a toxic view of the world and should fail.
I disagree with your thesis (which is not meant to antagonize you personally by the way!). My view is that a film that panders politically or socially or tries to subvert its own source material to make a progressive political statement will fail artistically in 99% of cases. You can’t separate woke from bad.
But that’s my point. That’s a bad film. It’s not a “woke” film. It’s a bad film. There are plenty of great progressive films with pretty overt themes.
I guess I’m not sure what you would consider woke then. Or maybe you view woke in a much more positive light than I do. To me you’re calling out famously very woke films and shows and saying they aren’t actually woke they’re just bad. To me it’s a distinction without a difference.
I wouldn’t consider anything “woke”. As I’ve said, it’s completely meaningless. Bad films have always been bad. Being too overt with messaging is bad filmmaking. But that’s been bad forever. Woke is a new BS term made up as a buzzword recently to try and ignite a culture war.
Hm. Ok. I completely disagree with you but it’s your blog and I’m just passing through! Appreciate the good conversation.
Apparently you can't think so far to realize that whatever amount of box office gross this movie makes, it could have made more.
I enjoyed the movie and find it to be a masterpiece in filmmaking. However, you have to admit that framing Odysseus as a traumatized "war is hell" veteran is a gross, gross liberty taken with the original text. The Odyssey is an epic poem that makes no bones about how great the sacking of Troy was. At no point does Homer make Odysseus wonder about the morality of war. That's why the character is flat and one sided in the book... Of course I get that this doesn't work on screen and Matt Damon needed an arc to keep things moving forward and the movie works and is fantastic for it. I loved it and am behind the whole "we were fighting terrorists and then became the terrorists (or people from the sea) after bombing a school in Iran or beheading Athena", sure, sign me up. But that just ain't in the book and I totally get people criticizing it.