You raise some very interesting points Jeff. I think also quite a few new movies are being deliberately targeted in the so called 'culture wars' and some people want them to fail so bad.
I generally agree with your sentiment and arguments. Where I would push back on is that criticism of things that are crappy shouldn't be avoided, and when crappy things are successful, we just end up with more crap. I know- very technical analysis lol. I would never put down creative, unique, independent projects, even if they weren't for me, or I didn't care for it. But getting mindless Schlock, endless sequels, nothing new or interesting, well I'd rather those aren't that successful, to maybe motivate them for something of substance, something new. I want more Sinners types movies, less Jurassic sequels. If the former fails and the latter succeeds, we only keep circling the drain on capitalist rot, no longer an art form, its McDonalds cinema vs. quality cuisine.
So all movies are equally good and there's no objective reality of quality? And if you love movies but are offended by how bad something is, we just cheer it on regardless?
That’s not what I said. I said we all have different tastes. Just because it isn’t yours doesn’t make it crappy. You don’t have to cheer for everything but it does no good for anyone to go online and complain about a movie just because you don’t like it and wish it to fail. Criticism is fine. Hoping for failure is what sucks.
I'm not hoping for failure, as the people just working the equipment etc, the hundreds of people who make it work, aren't to blame for the soulless c-suiters who push out crappy products. Them breaking even if probably a better outcome. I'm not saying it should fail or rooting for job loses for actual creatives. But in the same way you've argued how steamers have harmed movies and trained audiences, similar effect on audiences regarding the types of movies made, quality of them. It someone only has Taco Bell, they likely wouldn't have a developed pallet and understand how bad the food is they're eating. We need the quality mom and pop to succeed to get people a higher quality diet. Same applies to film
Totally with you. But I don’t consider Jurassic Park sequels to be crappy. There has to be a certain amount of that for theaters to survive. They’re a necessary part of it. The blockbuster drives movie theaters. But yes, there has been way too much in that direction lately and audiences are tired of it.
I haven't seen it and still might. Was just using it poorly as shorthand, an example to illustrate. I'm sure it's fun enough and not offensively bad, am not rooting against it. Just that so many movies are just sequels and remakes and so little are Sinners etc.
It seems like you're scared the movie industry as a whole is going to disappear. If it does its certainly not our fault. Right now Hollywood only cares about one thing. Money. They do not want to make good movies. They want to make money and thats it. If they could get away with releasing a 20 minute video with five 3 minute commercials that cost them $100 to make and earned a billion dollars they would be doing that. Right now there are way too many movies coming out and their quality has been slowly turning into trash since 2006. The actors basically read their lines and move around. They spend a ton of money on visuals and sound. But no matter how good the movies may appear to be they cannot escape the unoriginal terrible writing, acting, remake/sequel and lack of real human emotion/nature. There is no feeling in any of them. There is an appearance and mimic of it but none of it feels real. The actors know how to make happy, sad, and mad faces. The families dont feel real either. They dont walk talk or act like real everyday people during normal real wirld movies. Its just gimmick after gimmick with hollwood to get a viral reaction because that equals money. I love movies so much that I pray Hollywood gets flushed out completely. We start all over again, new unknown actors who do not care about making money, new writers, directors, producers, all new everyone. And none of them are motivated by money at all. Their only goal and care in life is to give the most heartfelt realistic performances of all time. Only people who really fit the role and beat out the competition by talent can get the parts. No more hiring the same actors over and over again because they filled seats in a $100 mil-billion dollar movie a few times. Once that happens and we get true quality movies again, the seats will naturally fill. Hlthey may even over fill because the movie was that good. No gimmicks or games to make people's impulses trigger. This will make the new movies far more valuable than any $10-500+ million dollar movie that has unfortunately been made over the past 20 years. These new movies will be timeless classics watched for generations. There are probably 50-100 new movies coming out every year and most people will not remember them, think about them, or re-watch them ever again in the next 4 years. That's where all the money is going. Pumping out quantity without any quality at all. Thankfully for the film industry they can literally put out anything and people will go see it and like it mindlessly. Especially if other people tell them its a good movie. Right now the film industry looks up popular shows, movies, merchandise etc. that made a lot of money in the past and release a remake or extremely late sequal. They are looking to see what people are talking about and make a movie out of the biggest topic at that time. Its all money only mentality. They do not care about the art or entertainment of the movie as long as it makes money. That's why people are being more honest now. $20 or more to see a $100 million dollar meaning g without any substance is starting to get very old and we won't pay for what we dont like. It seems like we are finding out just how many people really like the movies. And its not enough people. The mindless movie watchers who will see anything will also settle for anything. We were spoiled with amazing movies until the early 2000s. Now we are calling it like it is. Huge production super costly, good visuals and sounds terrible movies. You can have all the best and expensive junk you want in movies and it will never make them better. Watch the new dune without sound. It has a lot of short clips of people staring and cameras moving around them. All filler no thriller. Then the action they do have is basic. What a huge waste of money for a movie that will not be valued in the future. These movies over the past 10 years are small moments in time. They will be lost and forgotten very soon. They were good for one summer. But will they last a life time. No, they will not.
I think this happens because of Internet tribalism. People hate this movie or another because it’s too woke, or MAGA coded, or problematic, or because they’re Snyder fanboys, or Star wars purists, or whatever. And the Internet fans the flames of this dumb shit.
One other thing. I dont want a ton of high earning ridiculously bad quality movies pouring out by the thousands each year just so 1 or two great movies can be made once every 5-10 years. I would rather 10 amazing movies every year that are watched over and over for the next hundred years by original and new fans. I am not impressed by the high dollar visuals and bgm that makes terrible scenes seem more epic than they really are. How about make every minute count. Meaning not one scene is lacking in enterainment or missing a purpose. I cant remember a time in the past 15 years where I watched a movie where it was being genuine to the art of film. Its all about that cash grab and the art has suffered severely. Too many people are idolizing celebrities and they dont care what type of effort they put in as long as they are on screen. I love my mom but she isnt the best at everything. Sorry Jason Mamoa, good looks can only take you so far.
This mindset seems to exist in all forms of fandom these days. As a fan of pro wrestling & basketball I see it all the time. Fans of LeBron James tear down previous generations of stars and cherry pick stats to try and convince people they were not good. In wrestling fans of WWE are posting photos of crowds or tv ratings of other companies to direct the conversation to how bad these companies are. It’s not about celebrating your favorites but tearing down everyone else. Magic the Gathering released a Deadpool card & I thought that was pretty cool so I texted my friend who plays more than I do & he went on and on how the magic community is upset & it’s a cash grab & that people were pushing for a boycott. It’s a super weird way to show your fandom.
The problem is two fold. Lots of people online (trolls) will want to see practically everything fail in today's world. For one reason or another.
The other reason is because there is a lot of directors who choose to make political messages with their films from whatever view point they choose. And I am not talking about documentaries or films where the story and script are meant to have politics to drive home the story or plot. But films where there shouldn't be a political message. Or stories that are being "rebooted", of characters who were never political before. And because the director has an agenda, they make the character or story woke. Or left leaning. Or right leaning, or this agenda or that, etc..
It has been said before. people are tired of being told what way to believe. Or given an ideology agenda by the cast or director in films that have no business having them. And people are speaking with their wallets today.
I would go as far as to say, most people just want to go into a film to be entertained. And shut their brain off for two hours to enjoy leaving the real world behind during that time.
Politics have always been in movies. Some more explicitly than others. But it’s always been present and right at the forefront of the medium. What is happening now, in some cases, is that the messages are applied pretty sloppily. But there have always been political messages in movies.
There isn't politics in every movie. And there certainly doesn't have to be. You can't tell me politics are in movies like Dora the Explorer. Or Napoleon Dynamite. Or Uncle Buck, Or Home Alone. I could go on and on and on. Point is a huge part of the public is tired of it.
There are messages in all of those movies. Napoleon Dynamite for example is a commentary on rural America and literally has an election between an immigrant and a popular girl as a main plot theme. Home Alone deals with class inequality. Not every movie is overtly sending a message, but every movie has a message or a theme. And many times, politics can get involved. It’s not red and blue politics. It’s the fact that politics are the things that govern the state and the people, and any message about that is therefore political.
We will have to agree to disagree here, full stop.
What you are trying to do is force a square peg into a round hole to fit your narrative. Those movies may have messages sure. Political messages? No they don't, not even close. I find the points you made to be a massive stretch to take those movies I mentioned and turn their plots into political messages. There is even directors who have come out before in interviews over the decades and said the movie they made was strictly for comedy and laughs. And nothing more. And not to be taken seriously.
You’re seeing politics as red vs blue. I see it as the thing that makes the world go round, and movies are certainly political. You can argue they aren’t. You’d be wrong. Art is political.
What you are saying is that everything in film is political in some form or scope. And you would be wrong on that, period.
It isn't in everything today. You see it that way. But just as you said above that not everyone will agree that the JP movie is crappy, not everyone is gonna agree with you, all art or film has messages in them that in some form or factor have a message, that somehow ties back to politics. And no, I am not seeing that is only red and blue. I understand perfectly what you are inferring. That every message in somehow tie to an in truistic theme of politics. That somehow all beliefs are centered on politics. That simply is not true.
Sorry, that isn't the reality. You may feel that it is. But there are many, many people who who will disagree.
Art is no longer owned by the creatives once it is shared with the public. Intention and outcome are not the same. Everyone has values and beliefs, which are all political, and those are injected into every film. Whether that is related to gender roles, sex, the military, what constitutes a joke or not, these are all still "political" views that are being communicated through the film.
Sorry, disagree. What you and Jeff are saying is that every belief in life is somehow political. Many simplified thoughts and facts are not tied to politics. Even complex thoughts and facts don't have to be tied to politics. All politics are based on opinions. And movies contain much more than opinions. To try and simplify the art down to that, is dismissing the entirely of it's collective value, which certainly includes a whole lot more than politics.
I agree with the sentiment on the whole. It's weird when I see people wanting a movie to fail. It's like rock fans, which I am one of, complaining about popular music. It's pop music, of course you don't like it so don't listen to it. There's negatives to talk about with regard to studios only wanting billion dollar movies now but I don't really think that fits with this argument.
The Sinners issue specifically was the industry executives losing their minds because Coogler gets the rights back after 25 years. They didn't want it to be successful because they don't want other creators asking for the same deal. The studios would be barred from extracting as much money from movies as possible if that kind of deal becomes common place. The industry rags are in on it too because they exist only because of their studio access so they tow the industry line. They aren't on the side of the creatives.
You raise some very interesting points Jeff. I think also quite a few new movies are being deliberately targeted in the so called 'culture wars' and some people want them to fail so bad.
I generally agree with your sentiment and arguments. Where I would push back on is that criticism of things that are crappy shouldn't be avoided, and when crappy things are successful, we just end up with more crap. I know- very technical analysis lol. I would never put down creative, unique, independent projects, even if they weren't for me, or I didn't care for it. But getting mindless Schlock, endless sequels, nothing new or interesting, well I'd rather those aren't that successful, to maybe motivate them for something of substance, something new. I want more Sinners types movies, less Jurassic sequels. If the former fails and the latter succeeds, we only keep circling the drain on capitalist rot, no longer an art form, its McDonalds cinema vs. quality cuisine.
But what’s crappy to you is exciting to others. So I’m not gonna put anything down. Jurassic Park money is what allows for other movies to get made.
So all movies are equally good and there's no objective reality of quality? And if you love movies but are offended by how bad something is, we just cheer it on regardless?
That’s not what I said. I said we all have different tastes. Just because it isn’t yours doesn’t make it crappy. You don’t have to cheer for everything but it does no good for anyone to go online and complain about a movie just because you don’t like it and wish it to fail. Criticism is fine. Hoping for failure is what sucks.
I'm not hoping for failure, as the people just working the equipment etc, the hundreds of people who make it work, aren't to blame for the soulless c-suiters who push out crappy products. Them breaking even if probably a better outcome. I'm not saying it should fail or rooting for job loses for actual creatives. But in the same way you've argued how steamers have harmed movies and trained audiences, similar effect on audiences regarding the types of movies made, quality of them. It someone only has Taco Bell, they likely wouldn't have a developed pallet and understand how bad the food is they're eating. We need the quality mom and pop to succeed to get people a higher quality diet. Same applies to film
Totally with you. But I don’t consider Jurassic Park sequels to be crappy. There has to be a certain amount of that for theaters to survive. They’re a necessary part of it. The blockbuster drives movie theaters. But yes, there has been way too much in that direction lately and audiences are tired of it.
I haven't seen it and still might. Was just using it poorly as shorthand, an example to illustrate. I'm sure it's fun enough and not offensively bad, am not rooting against it. Just that so many movies are just sequels and remakes and so little are Sinners etc.
It seems like you're scared the movie industry as a whole is going to disappear. If it does its certainly not our fault. Right now Hollywood only cares about one thing. Money. They do not want to make good movies. They want to make money and thats it. If they could get away with releasing a 20 minute video with five 3 minute commercials that cost them $100 to make and earned a billion dollars they would be doing that. Right now there are way too many movies coming out and their quality has been slowly turning into trash since 2006. The actors basically read their lines and move around. They spend a ton of money on visuals and sound. But no matter how good the movies may appear to be they cannot escape the unoriginal terrible writing, acting, remake/sequel and lack of real human emotion/nature. There is no feeling in any of them. There is an appearance and mimic of it but none of it feels real. The actors know how to make happy, sad, and mad faces. The families dont feel real either. They dont walk talk or act like real everyday people during normal real wirld movies. Its just gimmick after gimmick with hollwood to get a viral reaction because that equals money. I love movies so much that I pray Hollywood gets flushed out completely. We start all over again, new unknown actors who do not care about making money, new writers, directors, producers, all new everyone. And none of them are motivated by money at all. Their only goal and care in life is to give the most heartfelt realistic performances of all time. Only people who really fit the role and beat out the competition by talent can get the parts. No more hiring the same actors over and over again because they filled seats in a $100 mil-billion dollar movie a few times. Once that happens and we get true quality movies again, the seats will naturally fill. Hlthey may even over fill because the movie was that good. No gimmicks or games to make people's impulses trigger. This will make the new movies far more valuable than any $10-500+ million dollar movie that has unfortunately been made over the past 20 years. These new movies will be timeless classics watched for generations. There are probably 50-100 new movies coming out every year and most people will not remember them, think about them, or re-watch them ever again in the next 4 years. That's where all the money is going. Pumping out quantity without any quality at all. Thankfully for the film industry they can literally put out anything and people will go see it and like it mindlessly. Especially if other people tell them its a good movie. Right now the film industry looks up popular shows, movies, merchandise etc. that made a lot of money in the past and release a remake or extremely late sequal. They are looking to see what people are talking about and make a movie out of the biggest topic at that time. Its all money only mentality. They do not care about the art or entertainment of the movie as long as it makes money. That's why people are being more honest now. $20 or more to see a $100 million dollar meaning g without any substance is starting to get very old and we won't pay for what we dont like. It seems like we are finding out just how many people really like the movies. And its not enough people. The mindless movie watchers who will see anything will also settle for anything. We were spoiled with amazing movies until the early 2000s. Now we are calling it like it is. Huge production super costly, good visuals and sounds terrible movies. You can have all the best and expensive junk you want in movies and it will never make them better. Watch the new dune without sound. It has a lot of short clips of people staring and cameras moving around them. All filler no thriller. Then the action they do have is basic. What a huge waste of money for a movie that will not be valued in the future. These movies over the past 10 years are small moments in time. They will be lost and forgotten very soon. They were good for one summer. But will they last a life time. No, they will not.
I think this happens because of Internet tribalism. People hate this movie or another because it’s too woke, or MAGA coded, or problematic, or because they’re Snyder fanboys, or Star wars purists, or whatever. And the Internet fans the flames of this dumb shit.
One other thing. I dont want a ton of high earning ridiculously bad quality movies pouring out by the thousands each year just so 1 or two great movies can be made once every 5-10 years. I would rather 10 amazing movies every year that are watched over and over for the next hundred years by original and new fans. I am not impressed by the high dollar visuals and bgm that makes terrible scenes seem more epic than they really are. How about make every minute count. Meaning not one scene is lacking in enterainment or missing a purpose. I cant remember a time in the past 15 years where I watched a movie where it was being genuine to the art of film. Its all about that cash grab and the art has suffered severely. Too many people are idolizing celebrities and they dont care what type of effort they put in as long as they are on screen. I love my mom but she isnt the best at everything. Sorry Jason Mamoa, good looks can only take you so far.
This mindset seems to exist in all forms of fandom these days. As a fan of pro wrestling & basketball I see it all the time. Fans of LeBron James tear down previous generations of stars and cherry pick stats to try and convince people they were not good. In wrestling fans of WWE are posting photos of crowds or tv ratings of other companies to direct the conversation to how bad these companies are. It’s not about celebrating your favorites but tearing down everyone else. Magic the Gathering released a Deadpool card & I thought that was pretty cool so I texted my friend who plays more than I do & he went on and on how the magic community is upset & it’s a cash grab & that people were pushing for a boycott. It’s a super weird way to show your fandom.
The problem is two fold. Lots of people online (trolls) will want to see practically everything fail in today's world. For one reason or another.
The other reason is because there is a lot of directors who choose to make political messages with their films from whatever view point they choose. And I am not talking about documentaries or films where the story and script are meant to have politics to drive home the story or plot. But films where there shouldn't be a political message. Or stories that are being "rebooted", of characters who were never political before. And because the director has an agenda, they make the character or story woke. Or left leaning. Or right leaning, or this agenda or that, etc..
It has been said before. people are tired of being told what way to believe. Or given an ideology agenda by the cast or director in films that have no business having them. And people are speaking with their wallets today.
I would go as far as to say, most people just want to go into a film to be entertained. And shut their brain off for two hours to enjoy leaving the real world behind during that time.
Politics have always been in movies. Some more explicitly than others. But it’s always been present and right at the forefront of the medium. What is happening now, in some cases, is that the messages are applied pretty sloppily. But there have always been political messages in movies.
There isn't politics in every movie. And there certainly doesn't have to be. You can't tell me politics are in movies like Dora the Explorer. Or Napoleon Dynamite. Or Uncle Buck, Or Home Alone. I could go on and on and on. Point is a huge part of the public is tired of it.
There are messages in all of those movies. Napoleon Dynamite for example is a commentary on rural America and literally has an election between an immigrant and a popular girl as a main plot theme. Home Alone deals with class inequality. Not every movie is overtly sending a message, but every movie has a message or a theme. And many times, politics can get involved. It’s not red and blue politics. It’s the fact that politics are the things that govern the state and the people, and any message about that is therefore political.
We will have to agree to disagree here, full stop.
What you are trying to do is force a square peg into a round hole to fit your narrative. Those movies may have messages sure. Political messages? No they don't, not even close. I find the points you made to be a massive stretch to take those movies I mentioned and turn their plots into political messages. There is even directors who have come out before in interviews over the decades and said the movie they made was strictly for comedy and laughs. And nothing more. And not to be taken seriously.
You’re seeing politics as red vs blue. I see it as the thing that makes the world go round, and movies are certainly political. You can argue they aren’t. You’d be wrong. Art is political.
What you are saying is that everything in film is political in some form or scope. And you would be wrong on that, period.
It isn't in everything today. You see it that way. But just as you said above that not everyone will agree that the JP movie is crappy, not everyone is gonna agree with you, all art or film has messages in them that in some form or factor have a message, that somehow ties back to politics. And no, I am not seeing that is only red and blue. I understand perfectly what you are inferring. That every message in somehow tie to an in truistic theme of politics. That somehow all beliefs are centered on politics. That simply is not true.
Sorry, that isn't the reality. You may feel that it is. But there are many, many people who who will disagree.
Art is no longer owned by the creatives once it is shared with the public. Intention and outcome are not the same. Everyone has values and beliefs, which are all political, and those are injected into every film. Whether that is related to gender roles, sex, the military, what constitutes a joke or not, these are all still "political" views that are being communicated through the film.
Sorry, disagree. What you and Jeff are saying is that every belief in life is somehow political. Many simplified thoughts and facts are not tied to politics. Even complex thoughts and facts don't have to be tied to politics. All politics are based on opinions. And movies contain much more than opinions. To try and simplify the art down to that, is dismissing the entirely of it's collective value, which certainly includes a whole lot more than politics.
I agree with the sentiment on the whole. It's weird when I see people wanting a movie to fail. It's like rock fans, which I am one of, complaining about popular music. It's pop music, of course you don't like it so don't listen to it. There's negatives to talk about with regard to studios only wanting billion dollar movies now but I don't really think that fits with this argument.
The Sinners issue specifically was the industry executives losing their minds because Coogler gets the rights back after 25 years. They didn't want it to be successful because they don't want other creators asking for the same deal. The studios would be barred from extracting as much money from movies as possible if that kind of deal becomes common place. The industry rags are in on it too because they exist only because of their studio access so they tow the industry line. They aren't on the side of the creatives.